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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit
[I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286901] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 09:48
Thomas Zahr  
After much pressure from my first born, ably supported by his
sister, I have been prevailed upon to continue to come up
with stories about Knight Willibald [1]

The world he [2] is inhabiting is a world of knights, where
everybody is a knight, or a squire, or a lady.

There is the millers castle, the bakers castle, the police
castle, etc.

Ritter Willbalds horse is called Walter btw, and the squire
is called Peter [3]

For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a girl
or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
equivalent to this.

Further I'm looking for a good equivalent for the German word
Raubritter, which is a knight living from robbery, but not a
brigand, since he would have his own castle.

Why? You ask with just that hint of trepidation, surely you
are not planning to inflict this on an unsuspecting froup?

Well, not as such. But I *am* thinking of putting the stories
up on our website, first in German, then eventually in
English too.

Which leads to the third question, which kind of licence
thingie should I link to that page? I want to retain
copyright, just in case I ever want to publish [5]

If anybody is interested, I'll post a link as soon as I have
actually put anything up [7], since I'm on vacation this
week, I have high hopes of at least putting one story up.

Much bated breath being stored now [8]

[1] The stories are in German, so it's Ritter Willibald really, and the connotation
is harmless, friendly and cuddly.
[2] Ritter Willibald, not the first born
[3] much to the delight of said first born
[4] The idea is to allow the kids to imagine themselves in the roles, 'tis supposed to make the
protagonists young(ish).
[5] Should the stories turn out to have any merit [6]
[6] Or rather apeal to other than my own kids.
[7] This post is an anti-procrastination (tm) device
[8] But not for re-sale, I promise ;-)

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<To sig or not to sig, that is the question?>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286908 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 10:14
Orjan Westin  
Thomas Zahr wrote:
>
> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a girl
> or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
> equivalent to this.

Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman who waits upon
(i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married high-ranking lady.

> Further I'm looking for a good equivalent for the German word
> Raubritter, which is a knight living from robbery, but not a
> brigand, since he would have his own castle.

"Robber baron" is the common term. Being a baron implies having a
castle (or at least one large estate (unless it's a "Court Baron", in
which case they'd be paid with money rather than lands)).

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286971 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 15:11
naomi  
Orjan Westin wrote:
> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a girl
>> or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
>> equivalent to this.
>
> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman who waits upon
> (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married high-ranking lady.
>
>> Further I'm looking for a good equivalent for the German word
>> Raubritter, which is a knight living from robbery, but not a
>> brigand, since he would have his own castle.
>
> "Robber baron" is the common term. Being a baron implies having a
> castle (or at least one large estate (unless it's a "Court Baron", in
> which case they'd be paid with money rather than lands)).
>
> Orjan

What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels around or one
who acts in an un chivalric way?

n
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286978 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 15:29
Orjan Westin  
naomi wrote:
>
> What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels around or one
> who acts in an un chivalric way?

It's a "knight on an errand", usually given him by a lady. A knight
errant has been given a task, and he roams the land in his effort to
fulfill it. The task may be important, but is often superficial, or
very general.

The specific task is not as important as the glory gained by completing
it. This glory adheres both to the knight and the sponsor (which
explains why they were sent out).

Knights errant are a literary invention, first appearing in the French
romances of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Those would see
knights challenging to a joust any other knight attempting to cross the
bridge they were guarding, or seeking out an elusive hermit, or slaying
a giant, dragon or other monster.

The task would be dedicated to the glory of the lady, and the mightier
the deeds of the knight, the more admired the lady would be.

Modern knights errant include people who roam the net to find
spider-pictures with which they can titillate their lady.

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286981 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 15:30
Arthur Hagen  
naomi <kittenkat [at] dodo.com.au> wrote:
>
> What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels around or one
> who acts in an un chivalric way?

Rather the opposite. It's one that travels around, looking for Good Deeds
to do in the name of a Lady. Very chivalric, supposedly.
It was presumably done to impress the lady's father, who said something like
"if I see you around here again, I'll bloody kill you".

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286982 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 15:36
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
The time: 12 Jun 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The
speaker: naomi <kittenkat [at] dodo.com.au>

> Orjan Westin wrote:
>> Thomas Zahr wrote:

>>> Further I'm looking for a good equivalent for the German
>>> word Raubritter, which is a knight living from robbery,
>>> but not a brigand, since he would have his own castle.
>>
>> "Robber baron" is the common term. Being a baron implies
>> having a castle (or at least one large estate (unless it's
>> a "Court Baron", in which case they'd be paid with money
>> rather than lands)).

> What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels
> around or one who acts in an un chivalric way?

The former. In fact, the knights of chivalric romance are
almost always knight-errants, in that they wander the
countryside looking for quests to perform.

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
Suggs against sexism. It's Madness gone
politically correct.
Jon Holmes, The Now Show 26/5/06
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #286999 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 17:03
jester  
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:48:56 +0200, Thomas Zahr
<ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> wrote:
<chop>
>
>Which leads to the third question, which kind of licence
>thingie should I link to that page? I want to retain
>copyright, just in case I ever want to publish [5]

Well, you'll keep copyright anyway. I'd possibly suggest looking at a
Creative Commons licence, but I just like sharing stuff:
<http://creativecommons.org/>

You'll probably get somebody come along and tell you that no publisher
will touch anything that's available on the web for free. I believe Cory
Doctorow might disagree with that:
<http://www.craphound.com/index.php?cat=5>

--
Andy Brown
C isn't that hard: void (*(*f[])())() defines f as an array of
unspecified size, of pointers to functions that return pointers to
functions that return void.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287000 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 17:06
Thomas Zahr  
Orjan Westin posted:

> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>>
>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a
>> girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
>> equivalent to this.
>
> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman
> who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married
> high-ranking lady.

Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in cheeck. Can't be helped.

>
>> Further I'm looking for a good equivalent for the German
>> word Raubritter, which is a knight living from robbery,
>> but not a brigand, since he would have his own castle.
>
> "Robber baron" is the common term. Being a baron implies
> having a castle (or at least one large estate (unless it's
> a "Court Baron", in which case they'd be paid with money
> rather than lands)).

Ok. That will have to do.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<http://www.zahr.de>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287001 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 17:15
Orjan Westin  
jester wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:48:56 +0200, Thomas Zahr
> <ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> wrote:
> <chop>
>>
>> Which leads to the third question, which kind of licence
>> thingie should I link to that page? I want to retain
>> copyright, just in case I ever want to publish [5]
>
> Well, you'll keep copyright anyway. I'd possibly suggest looking at a
> Creative Commons licence, but I just like sharing stuff:
> <http://creativecommons.org/>
>
> You'll probably get somebody come along and tell you that no publisher
> will touch anything that's available on the web for free.

Interestingly enough, while many publishers consider anything on the web
(unless in a restricted area, and even that is questionable) to be
formally published, Usenet, even with Google Groups, is often considered
to be "posted", not published.

You should never say you have published something on Usenet, though.
Call it posting.

> I believe
> Cory Doctorow might disagree with that:
> http://www.craphound.com/index.php?cat=5

Yes, but he was an established author before he started to set things
free, wasn't he?

Like Baen's noble experiment, I imagine this has proved to increase, or
at least not harm, his sales.

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287011 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 17:54
Stacie Hanes  
Thomas Zahr wrote:

> Which leads to the third question, which kind of licence
> thingie should I link to that page? I want to retain
> copyright, just in case I ever want to publish [5]

There's a "creative commons" licensing website. There's a button on my blog.
That's all I have time to say just now...you know where it is, right? The
button is down a bit on the righthand sidebar.

Might check and see if that's what you want.

--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287012 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 17:58
Stacie Hanes  
Orjan Westin wrote:

<Cory Doctorow>

> Yes, but he was an established author before he started to set
> things free, wasn't he?

I'm not quite in the same boat, but I've wondered about my City Watch essay
on L-Space. I have no idea whether I should even try to place it elsewhere.
I think not, but I don't have an answer.

--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287051 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 19:03
Torak  
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:
> speaker: naomi <kittenkat [at] dodo.com.au>
>
>>What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels
>>around or one who acts in an un chivalric way?
>
> The former. In fact, the knights of chivalric romance are
> almost always knight-errants, in that they wander the
> countryside looking for quests to perform.

In the interests of traditional AFP pedantry, I am compelled to point
out that it should probably be "k-niggits errant". Rather like
"attorneys general" or "courts martial".
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287109 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 21:32
rja.carnegie  
Thomas Zahr wrote:
> Orjan Westin posted:
>
> > Thomas Zahr wrote:
> >>
> >> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
> >> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a
> >> girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
> >> equivalent to this.
> >
> > Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman
> > who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married
> > high-ranking lady.
>
> Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in cheeck. Can't be helped.

If you don't want wenches (who would actually be essential to a
functioning castle economy - for laundry, etc., unless you have
house-elves), you may be at liberty to make them all princesses, and no
one has to wait on anybody. I think the mediaeval lady thing involves
communal sewing groups (embroidery, tapestry), which suggests a line
that Pterry's readers will recognise but choose not to take.

> >> Further I'm looking for a good equivalent for the German
> >> word Raubritter, which is a knight living from robbery,
> >> but not a brigand, since he would have his own castle.
> >
> > "Robber baron" is the common term. Being a baron implies
> > having a castle (or at least one large estate (unless it's
> > a "Court Baron", in which case they'd be paid with money
> > rather than lands)).
>
> Ok. That will have to do.

Wikipedia for "Robber baron" in fact goes straight to discussing the
Raubritter, chiefly in respect of tolls and other controls on traffic
on the river Rhine.

To this day, any war zone sees private enterprise spring up in terms of
road toll checkpoints. But you tend not to get castles of the
traditional design.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287130 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 22:39
Stacie Hanes  
Orjan Westin wrote:
>
> Modern knights errant include people who roam the net to find
> spider-pictures with which they can titillate their lady.

American Heritage:

1. To stimulate by touching lightly; tickle. 2. To excite (another)
pleasurably, superficially or erotically.


Oh, good, you don't mean me.
--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287131 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 22:29
Thomas Zahr  
Robert Carnegie posted:

>
> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>> Orjan Westin posted:
>>
>>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be
>>>> a girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an
>>>> English equivalent to this.
>>>
>>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born
>>> woman who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a
>>> married high-ranking lady.
>>
>> Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in
>> cheeck. Can't be helped.
>
> If you don't want wenches (who would actually be essential
> to a functioning castle economy - for laundry, etc., unless
> you have house-elves), you may be at liberty to make them
> all princesses, and no one has to wait on anybody. I think
> the mediaeval lady thing involves communal sewing groups
> (embroidery, tapestry), which suggests a line that Pterry's
> readers will recognise but choose not to take.

'tis not so much if I want wenches ;-)

They are all kind of middle class knights, each with a
profession, there may be a baker knight (who of course has a
bakery castle), a police knight etc.

There is adventure, crime, hunts, travel, etc.

....

> Wikipedia for "Robber baron" in fact goes straight to
> discussing the Raubritter, chiefly in respect of tolls and
> other controls on traffic on the river Rhine.

> To this day, any war zone sees private enterprise spring up
> in terms of road toll checkpoints. But you tend not to get
> castles of the traditional design.

For example, shortly Raubritter Kuno (Willibalds archnemesis
(and vice versa)) will, again, escape from the high security
prison castle, steel all Willibalds savings and the
Burgfraeulein Marianne. So off to find them go Ritter
Willibald and Knappe Peter. [1]

The audience is about 3 to 10 years old or so.

[1] this may be the solution, use the German terms and have a little
appendix, no?

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<http://www.zahr.de>
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287132 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 22:48
rja.carnegie  
Orjan Westin wrote:
> naomi wrote:
> >
> > What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels around or one
> > who acts in an un chivalric way?
>
> It's a "knight on an errand", usually given him by a lady. A knight
> errant has been given a task, and he roams the land in his effort to
> fulfill it. The task may be important, but is often superficial, or
> very general.

....or unspecified, or even unsolicited.

> The specific task is not as important as the glory gained by completing
> it. This glory adheres both to the knight and the sponsor (which
> explains why they were sent out).
>
> Knights errant are a literary invention, first appearing in the French
> romances of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Those would see
> knights challenging to a joust any other knight attempting to cross the
> bridge they were guarding, or seeking out an elusive hermit, or slaying
> a giant, dragon or other monster.
>
> The task would be dedicated to the glory of the lady, and the mightier
> the deeds of the knight, the more admired the lady would be.

....by people who somehow perceive a connection between the two.

> Modern knights errant include people who roam the net to find
> spider-pictures with which they can titillate their lady.

In such a case one admires the lady's self-restraint in not bashing
spider or "knight". On any particular given day.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287155 ] Mo, 12 Juni 2006 23:26
Ross  
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:48:56 +0200, Thomas Zahr wrote in
<Xns97E063D9FBB73ThomasZahrfreenetde [at] ID-179574.user.uni-berlin.de>,
seen in alt.fan.pratchett:

> Which leads to the third question, which kind of licence
> thingie should I link to that page? I want to retain
> copyright, just in case I ever want to publish [5]

Have you looked at the options offered by Creative Commons?
<http://creativecommons.org/>


I have a CC2.5 licence for those of my photos which are online; it
basically says "Must be attributed, no commercial use and no
derivations".
<http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.5/>
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

Demonstration of poor photography: <http://www.rosspix.me.uk> - updated with Czech photos
AD: <http://www.merciacharters.co.uk> for European charters occasionally gripped by me
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287249 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 04:27
Stacie Hanes  
Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Orjan Westin wrote:
>> naomi wrote:
>>>
>>> What is a knight errant? Is it just a Knight who travels around
>>> or one who acts in an un chivalric way?
>>
>> It's a "knight on an errand", usually given him by a lady. A
>> knight errant has been given a task, and he roams the land in his
>> effort to fulfill it. The task may be important, but is often
>> superficial, or very general.
>
> ...or unspecified, or even unsolicited.
>
>> The specific task is not as important as the glory gained by
>> completing it. This glory adheres both to the knight and the
>> sponsor (which explains why they were sent out).
>>
>> Knights errant are a literary invention, first appearing in the
>> French romances of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Those
>> would see knights challenging to a joust any other knight
>> attempting to cross the bridge they were guarding, or seeking out
>> an elusive hermit, or slaying a giant, dragon or other monster.
>>
>> The task would be dedicated to the glory of the lady, and the
>> mightier the deeds of the knight, the more admired the lady would
>> be.
>
> ...by people who somehow perceive a connection between the two.
>
>> Modern knights errant include people who roam the net to find
>> spider-pictures with which they can titillate their lady.
>
> In such a case one admires the lady's self-restraint in not bashing
> spider or "knight". On any particular given day.

--
4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse, AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons,
Bondage-happy predator, Speaker-To-Students, SadoMangoist,
AFPMistress to peachy, 8'FED's AFPDeliciousSnack, AFPFiance to A.
Nevill , Graycat's Guttersnipe
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287311 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 08:48
dicconf  
In article <kagjg.5036$lp.4957 [at] newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Anastasia <esmeraldus [at] earthlink.net> wrote:
>Orjan Westin wrote:
>
><Cory Doctorow>
>
>> Yes, but he was an established author before he started to set
>> things free, wasn't he?
>
>I'm not quite in the same boat, but I've wondered about my City Watch essay
>on L-Space. I have no idea whether I should even try to place it elsewhere.
>I think not, but I don't have an answer.

I've often seen things published that had little notices about "an earlier
version was published elsewhere". Sometimes the earlier version was only
very slightly different.

=Tamar
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287352 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 12:17
rja.carnegie  
Thomas Zahr wrote:
> Robert Carnegie posted:
>
> >
> > Thomas Zahr wrote:
> >> Orjan Westin posted:
> >>
> >>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
> >>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be
> >>>> a girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an
> >>>> English equivalent to this.
> >>>
> >>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born
> >>> woman who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a
> >>> married high-ranking lady.
> >>
> >> Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in
> >> cheeck. Can't be helped.
> >
> > If you don't want wenches (who would actually be essential
> > to a functioning castle economy - for laundry, etc., unless
> > you have house-elves), you may be at liberty to make them
> > all princesses, and no one has to wait on anybody. I think
> > the mediaeval lady thing involves communal sewing groups
> > (embroidery, tapestry), which suggests a line that Pterry's
> > readers will recognise but choose not to take.
>
> 'tis not so much if I want wenches ;-)
>
> They are all kind of middle class knights, each with a
> profession, there may be a baker knight (who of course has a
> bakery castle), a police knight etc.

Well, that's, um, weird.

Then I hope that the ladies are all in professions or trades as well
where appropriate. They can do that and still be ladies (and probably
mummies) if the knights can do it and be knights.

In English of course you have scope for silly names beginning with Sir
which would fit with your "weekend warriors"(??) - a butcher called Sir
Loin Steak (for sirloin steak), and so on. It can be sometimes
difficult to think up good ones - I'm stuck for your baker. Team
effort may be appropriate, and for your stated audience - including afp
- they don't have to be subtle!

In German, would rhymes on Ritter produce a similar effect?

Or they could be all princes and princesses, the courtly ecology needs
those as well :-) But maybe they're over-used - I've seen at least one
story series (was it King Rollo?) where the monarch, with all the
apparatus of a feudal government, was clearly also a little boy -
there'd be things like having to do his governing for the day (chores)
before he could go out and play. I'm not sure if the reader was
supposed to find this incongruous or natural. Wouldn't you want to go
out and play after you'd done your boring old governing? Wouldn't you
want to go out and play /instead/ of governing, and your Prime Minister
would have to tell you to stay indoors and govern?

> > Wikipedia for "Robber baron" in fact goes straight to
> > discussing the Raubritter, chiefly in respect of tolls and
> > other controls on traffic on the river Rhine.
>
> > To this day, any war zone sees private enterprise spring up
> > in terms of road toll checkpoints. But you tend not to get
> > castles of the traditional design.
>
> For example, shortly Raubritter Kuno (Willibalds archnemesis
> (and vice versa)) will, again, escape from the high security
> prison castle, steel all Willibalds savings and the
> Burgfraeulein Marianne. So off to find them go Ritter
> Willibald and Knappe Peter. [1]
>
> The audience is about 3 to 10 years old or so.
>
> [1] this may be the solution, use the German terms and have a little
> appendix, no?

Again for the age group, I suggest that for writing in English, it
isn't necessary to disguise the terms - the words that we use for the
courtly roles are exotic enough to modern children (for all that they
appear in so many stories), and I suppose you want to connect the
stories to the courtly metaphor - so to have to look at the back of the
book to see that these people are knights and ladies, particularly if
they are sometimes not acting like knights and ladies, may be burying
it too deep.

In fact I have it in mind from your description that these people only
/look/ like knights and ladies, and live in houses that /look/ like
castles but clearly aren't because, for one thing, they aren't full of
servants. Probably there's a school castle for young squires. Knights
and ladies who don't have large families may live in semi-detached
castles. And so on. And they go off and do knight things when they
aren't working, as the Society for Creative Anachronism does. Or is it
not quite like that?
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287367 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 13:03
Graycat  
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:06:19 +0200, Thomas Zahr
<ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> jotted down:

>Orjan Westin posted:
>
>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>>>
>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a
>>> girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
>>> equivalent to this.
>>
>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman
>> who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married
>> high-ranking lady.
>
>Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in cheeck. Can't be helped.

Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
to come up with something different - to me
"lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you aren't
master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much stronger,
more self sufficient. What do they do? Could they be
knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.

--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287386 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 14:46
Steve Rogers  
"Graycat" <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hl6t82d0q0v8hltopiv5kj1t7i9l4mjslq [at] 4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:06:19 +0200, Thomas Zahr
> <ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> jotted down:
>
>>Orjan Westin posted:
>>
>>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a
>>>> girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
>>>> equivalent to this.
>>>
>>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman
>>> who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married
>>> high-ranking lady.
>>
>>Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in cheeck. Can't
>>be helped.
>
> Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
> to come up with something different - to me
> "lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you aren't
> master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much stronger,
> more self sufficient. What do they do? Could they be
> knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.
>

Now there's an odd one, thinking about it I can't recall any book that
I've read in English set in that sort of period that mentions a woman in
a castle other than as subservient in some way, other than where the
wife is the obvious power behind the throne of course. All the
designations that I can recall all reflect this. It's only when you get
out of the castle that you start seeing stories where the woman is not
in a subservient role. ICBW of course but that's the way it seems to me
to be even in modern books written of that sort of period.

Steve
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287387 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 14:47
Thomas Zahr  
jester posted:

> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:48:56 +0200, Thomas Zahr
> <ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> wrote:
> <chop>
>>
>> Which leads to the third question, which kind of licence
>> thingie should I link to that page? I want to retain
>> copyright, just in case I ever want to publish [5]
>
> Well, you'll keep copyright anyway. I'd possibly suggest
> looking at a Creative Commons licence, but I just like
> sharing stuff: <http://creativecommons.org/>

Ta. That's what I was looking for.

> You'll probably get somebody come along and tell you that
> no publisher will touch anything that's available on the
> web for free. I believe Cory Doctorow might disagree with
> that: <http://www.craphound.com/index.php?cat=5>

We are talking very basic childrens stories here, they can
always be rewritten.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<out of sig error>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287388 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 14:48
Thomas Zahr  
Anastasia posted:

.... creative commons, button on esmeraldus

I do.

> Might check and see if that's what you want.

Thanks , will do

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<Hencefort, the afpfavourite of Graycat :o)>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287389 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 14:49
Thomas Zahr  
Ross posted:

....

> I have a CC2.5 licence for those of my photos which are
> online; it basically says "Must be attributed, no
> commercial use and no derivations".
> <http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.5/>

This looks like the right bunny. Ta muchly. The second beer's on me.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<If god is omnipotent, why create monday to friday?>
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287390 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 14:39
Thomas Zahr  
Robert Carnegie posted:

>
> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie posted:

....

>>> If you don't want wenches (who would actually be
>>> essential to a functioning castle economy - for laundry,
>>> etc., unless you have house-elves), you may be at
>>> liberty to make them all princesses, and no one has to
>>> wait on anybody. I think the mediaeval lady thing
>>> involves communal sewing groups (embroidery, tapestry),
>>> which suggests a line that Pterry's readers will
>>> recognise but choose not to take.

>> 'tis not so much if I want wenches ;-)

>> They are all kind of middle class knights, each with a
>> profession, there may be a baker knight (who of course has
>> a bakery castle), a police knight etc.

> Well, that's, um, weird.

My kids liked it very much. (Maybe they were just leading
Papa on, but their friends reactec favourably too, when they
were in attendace.)

> Then I hope that the ladies are all in professions or
> trades as well where appropriate. They can do that and
> still be ladies (and probably mummies) if the knights can
> do it and be knights.

Absolutely, even though there has been no need yet to
introduce a questing Burgfraeulein. I think I've been using
the terms to denote man / woman and not some medieval role.

> In English of course you have scope for silly names
> beginning with Sir which would fit with your "weekend
> warriors"(??) - a butcher called Sir Loin Steak (for
> sirloin steak), and so on. It can be sometimes difficult
> to think up good ones - I'm stuck for your baker. Team
> effort may be appropriate, and for your stated audience -
> including afp - they don't have to be subtle!

Excellent, but it does look like too much work ;-). I was
looking more at writing the stuff in German and then
re-telling in English, but without too much investment into a
different style.

> In German, would rhymes on Ritter produce a similar effect?

There aren't that many. Bitter (not the beer, the taste),
fitter (comparative, stolen from English)

> Or they could be all princes and princesses, the courtly
> ecology needs those as well :-) But maybe they're
> over-used - I've seen at least one story series (was it
> King Rollo?) where the monarch, with all the apparatus of a
> feudal government, was clearly also a little boy - there'd
> be things like having to do his governing for the day
> (chores) before he could go out and play. I'm not sure if
> the reader was supposed to find this incongruous or
> natural. Wouldn't you want to go out and play after you'd
> done your boring old governing? Wouldn't you want to go
> out and play /instead/ of governing, and your Prime
> Minister would have to tell you to stay indoors and govern?

Ritter Willibald acts out simple adventures and stories in
front of a simple canvas. That's why government did not yet
arise. If it did it would be a Rittermeister (a play on
Buergermeister - mayor), and government would be strictly
local. Forn parts might have kings or queens though.

.... robber barons from wikipedia

>> For example, shortly Raubritter Kuno (Willibalds
>> archnemesis (and vice versa)) will, again, escape from the
>> high security prison castle, steel all Willibalds savings
>> and the Burgfraeulein Marianne. So off to find them go
>> Ritter Willibald and Knappe Peter. [1]

>> The audience is about 3 to 10 years old or so.

>> [1] this may be the solution, use the German terms and
>> have a little appendix, no?

> Again for the age group, I suggest that for writing in
> English, it isn't necessary to disguise the terms - the
> words that we use for the courtly roles are exotic enough
> to modern children (for all that they appear in so many
> stories), and I suppose you want to connect the stories to
> the courtly metaphor - so to have to look at the back of
> the book to see that these people are knights and ladies,
> particularly if they are sometimes not acting like knights
> and ladies, may be burying it too deep.

I've almost decided to use the German terms, and feetneet
them.

> In fact I have it in mind from your description that these
> people only /look/ like knights and ladies, and live in
> houses that /look/ like castles but clearly aren't because,
> for one thing, they aren't full of servants. Probably
> there's a school castle for young squires. Knights and
> ladies who don't have large families may live in
> semi-detached castles. And so on. And they go off and do
> knight things when they aren't working, as the Society for
> Creative Anachronism does. Or is it not quite like that?

Absolutely. A stripped bare society. No economy. Everybody on
the same level. Doing the knightly thing off-duty. Or rather
baking is knightly too. No need for servants, because the
castles are small enough. Now that I think about it.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<www.kochkinder.de>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287391 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 14:45
Thomas Zahr  
Graycat posted:

> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:06:19 +0200, Thomas Zahr
> <ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> jotted down:
>
>> Orjan Westin posted:
>>
>>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a
>>>> girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
>>>> equivalent to this.
>>>
>>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman
>>> who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married
>>> high-ranking lady.
>>
>> Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in
>> cheeck. Can't be helped.
>
> Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
> to come up with something different - to me
> "lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you
> aren't master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much
> stronger, more self sufficient. What do they do? Could they
> be knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.

They are the equal of a knight, at least in the
Willbaldverse. The Burgfraeulein is the female Ritter. So
yes, they are not sitting at home doing the knitting while He
is doing the heroics, even though Burgfraeulein Marianne
(Ritter Willibalds wife) enjoys staying at home more than
questing, but when she does go questing, she's very
competent.

At the moment my working assumption is to use the German word
with suitable feetneet.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<Mine Horn Is Exalted In Om>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287395 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 15:03
Thomas Zahr  
Steve Rogers posted:

>
> "Graycat" <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hl6t82d0q0v8hltopiv5kj1t7i9l4mjslq [at] 4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:06:19 +0200, Thomas Zahr
>> <ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> jotted down:
>>
>>> Orjan Westin posted:
>>>
>>>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
>>>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be
>>>>> a girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an
>>>>> English equivalent to this.
>>>>
>>>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born
>>>> woman who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a
>>>> married high-ranking lady.
>>>
>>> Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in
>>> cheeck. Can't be helped.
>>
>> Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd
>> try to come up with something different - to me
>> "lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you
>> aren't master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much
>> stronger, more self sufficient. What do they do? Could
>> they be knightesses? Despite that word probably not
>> existing.
>>
>
> Now there's an odd one, thinking about it I can't recall
> any book that I've read in English set in that sort of
> period that mentions a woman in a castle other than as
> subservient in some way, other than where the wife is the
> obvious power behind the throne of course. All the
> designations that I can recall all reflect this. It's only
> when you get out of the castle that you start seeing
> stories where the woman is not in a subservient role. ICBW
> of course but that's the way it seems to me to be even in
> modern books written of that sort of period.
>

Hence my problem with nomenclatur. The German terms are more
neutral and can therefor be used to mean equality, while the
English terms seem to be much more specific.

--
Ciao

Thomas =:-)
<out of sig error>
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287405 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 16:02
Orjan Westin  
Steve Rogers wrote:
> "Graycat" <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hl6t82d0q0v8hltopiv5kj1t7i9l4mjslq [at] 4ax.com...
>>
>> Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
>> to come up with something different - to me
>> "lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you aren't
>> master of your own life.

Huh?

Oh, right. I think I see what you mean. I probably suffer from having
read lots of books (more fact than fiction) about the period, so I
wouldn't say a knight is very free either. An ordinary knight is a
servant, too. Land-holding knights would have more freedom, and it
would increase with rank.

But just looking at the words, the "in-waiting" implies a powerlessness
and passivity, yes?

The meaning of the word "wait" here is not the same as the one that's in
common current use, of course, but that doesn't help much. You don't
want to put a long socio-economical/etymological/historical footnote in
whenever you used the phrase.

>> Burgfraeulein sounds much stronger,
>> more self sufficient.

Literary "castle maid". Looks better in German, I think.

>> What do they do? Could they be
>> knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.

It doesn't. A noble woman commanding knights would be a Lady.
Normally, a lady would be the wife of the lord, but widows may inherit
command. It's not very common, but it did happen.

Of course, if he's writing about Sir Gerry the physician or the cautious
Sir Cumspect, he might as well have Lady Da the singer or Lady
Burdendown the priestess.

> Now there's an odd one, thinking about it I can't recall any book that
> I've read in English set in that sort of period that mentions a woman
> in a castle other than as subservient in some way, other than where
> the wife is the obvious power behind the throne of course.

Empress Maude and Eleanor of Aquitaine were both strong leaders, and not
ashamed to show it, to name two famous women. There are more, and I
could compile a list for you if you wish.

The norm in that society was that women were subservient, though.
England is rather interesting in that regard, since there was a huge
shift in that direction after the Norman invasion, and the feudalism
introduced by William the not-born-in-wedlock. In the Saxon society,
women had a lot more rights, and a more equal standing. Naturally, it
would depend on class and prosperity, but that's true for the men, too.

> All the designations that I can recall all reflect this.

Do you think that "lady" is a subservient designation?

> It's only when you
> get out of the castle that you start seeing stories where the woman
> is not in a subservient role. ICBW of course but that's the way it
> seems to me to be even in modern books written of that sort of period.

That's probably because that's the way society was organised, and those
were the norms and values most people adhered to, in that time.

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287415 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 16:57
Graycat  
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0100, "Orjan Westin"
<nospam [at] cunobaros.com> jotted down:

>Steve Rogers wrote:
>> "Graycat" <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:hl6t82d0q0v8hltopiv5kj1t7i9l4mjslq [at] 4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
>>> to come up with something different - to me
>>> "lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you aren't
>>> master of your own life.
>
>Huh?
>
>Oh, right. I think I see what you mean. I probably suffer from having
>read lots of books (more fact than fiction) about the period, so I
>wouldn't say a knight is very free either. An ordinary knight is a
>servant, too. Land-holding knights would have more freedom, and it
>would increase with rank.
>
>But just looking at the words, the "in-waiting" implies a powerlessness
>and passivity, yes?

I think so, yes. Either it's someone who sits around and
waits, or someone who serves (as in waiting tables). I'm not
talking about historically corect here - but if it's a
childrens story, I'd prefer the women to seem empowered,
since most children probably won't know what a real lady in
waiting did, anyway.

>The meaning of the word "wait" here is not the same as the one that's in
>common current use, of course, but that doesn't help much. You don't
>want to put a long socio-economical/etymological/historical footnote in
>whenever you used the phrase.
>
>>> Burgfraeulein sounds much stronger,
>>> more self sufficient.
>
>Literary "castle maid". Looks better in German, I think.

Yes. But fraeulein is German for, well, fröken, er, what you
call a young woman if youre polite, like miss I guess, too.
To me it looks like "woman of the castle", which would, if
anything, imply ownership - as though she owns/runs the
castle. I don't speak German though.

>>> What do they do? Could they be
>>> knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.
>
>It doesn't. A noble woman commanding knights would be a Lady.
>Normally, a lady would be the wife of the lord, but widows may inherit
>command. It's not very common, but it did happen.

I know. But again, I don't think (from what we've been told
about the story) historical correctness is an issue here.
I'm not talking about a woman who commands knights, I'm
talking about a woman who _is_ a knight. I don't think there
is a word for that, because I don't think they officially
existed (apart from Jean D'Arc).

I think you could use Lady, because it's the closest you get
statuswise to the word knight, and it's relatively neutral.
But you still get the sitting-around-waiting-to-get-rescued
connotations to some extent.


--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287427 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 17:56
rja.carnegie  
Thomas Zahr wrote:
> Graycat posted:
>
> > On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:06:19 +0200, Thomas Zahr
> > <ThomasZahr0604 [at] geekmail.de> jotted down:
> >
> >> Orjan Westin posted:
> >>
> >>> Thomas Zahr wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> For the ladies in the stories I'm using the German term
> >>>> Burgfraeulein (literally: castle girl), which could be a
> >>>> girl or a young woman [4] Now I'm looking for an English
> >>>> equivalent to this.
> >>>
> >>> Lady-in-waiting. An unmarried (usually) noble-born woman
> >>> who waits upon (i.e. acts as company to etc.) a married
> >>> high-ranking lady.
> >>
> >> Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in
> >> cheeck. Can't be helped.
> >
> > Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
> > to come up with something different - to me
> > "lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you
> > aren't master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much
> > stronger, more self sufficient. What do they do? Could they
> > be knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.
>
> They are the equal of a knight, at least in the
> Willbaldverse. The Burgfraeulein is the female Ritter. So
> yes, they are not sitting at home doing the knitting while He
> is doing the heroics, even though Burgfraeulein Marianne
> (Ritter Willibalds wife) enjoys staying at home more than
> questing, but when she does go questing, she's very
> competent.
>
> At the moment my working assumption is to use the German word
> with suitable feetneet.

If the female characters do the knighting, or whatever it's called, you
could call them knights. It's a different side of the dressing-up box,
of course. Not long skirts and impractical tall conical hats, but
selected pieces of cardboard as imitation armour.

Surely a wife can't be a Fraulein? Does Ritterin sound like nonsense,
or like something gravely wrong?

Does looking for scissors at home count as questing? I think I own at
least a dozen pairs of scissors. I can find two.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287436 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 18:15
Torak  
Thomas Zahr wrote:
> Steve Rogers posted:
>>"Graycat" <rosen.elin [at] gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:06:19 +0200, Thomas Zahr
>>>>
>>>>Thanks. Pity though, as Burgfraeulein is a bit tongue in
>>>>cheeck. Can't be helped.
>>>
>>>Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd
>>>try to come up with something different - to me
>>>"lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you
>>>aren't master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much
>>>stronger, more self sufficient. What do they do? Could
>>>they be knightesses? Despite that word probably not
>>>existing.
>>
>>Now there's an odd one, thinking about it I can't recall
>>any book that I've read in English set in that sort of
>>period that mentions a woman in a castle other than as
>>subservient in some way, other than where the wife is the
>>obvious power behind the throne of course. All the
>>designations that I can recall all reflect this. It's only
>>when you get out of the castle that you start seeing
>>stories where the woman is not in a subservient role. ICBW
>>of course but that's the way it seems to me to be even in
>>modern books written of that sort of period.
>
> Hence my problem with nomenclatur. The German terms are more
> neutral and can therefor be used to mean equality, while the
> English terms seem to be much more specific.

But... um... equality at the time was rather limited, and women *were*
largely subservient, certainly in a court context. So if the books have
any aspiration towards historical accuracy it's not surprising, really.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287438 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 18:17
Torak  
Thomas Zahr wrote:
> Graycat posted:
>>
>>Unless these women are actually subservient though, I'd try
>>to come up with something different - to me
>>"lady-in-waiting" implies a lack of freedom, that you
>>aren't master of your own life. Burgfraeulein sounds much
>>stronger, more self sufficient. What do they do? Could they
>>be knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.
>
> They are the equal of a knight, at least in the
> Willbaldverse. The Burgfraeulein is the female Ritter. So
> yes, they are not sitting at home doing the knitting while He
> is doing the heroics, even though Burgfraeulein Marianne
> (Ritter Willibalds wife) enjoys staying at home more than
> questing, but when she does go questing, she's very
> competent.

Shieldmaiden, perhaps?

(All right, so LOTR has perhaps not that much relation to real history,
but still....)
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287458 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 19:52
alec  
In article <e6mc2f$7jd$1$8300dec7 [at] news.demon.co.uk>,
steve [at] soapietrekkers.demon.co.uk says...

> Now there's an odd one, thinking about it I can't recall any book that
> I've read in English set in that sort of period that mentions a woman in
> a castle other than as subservient in some way, other than where the
> wife is the obvious power behind the throne of course. All the
> designations that I can recall all reflect this. It's only when you get
> out of the castle that you start seeing stories where the woman is not
> in a subservient role. ICBW of course but that's the way it seems to me
> to be even in modern books written of that sort of period.

The wife who stayed home while her husband went to the war, and
sometimes had to withstand a siege from his enemies coming the other
way, was called a Chatelaine. The term lives on as a reference to a
large keyring on a chain at the waist, which she would (at least in the
imagination) have used in her tasks around the castle. Some Chateleaines
were very competent and powerful women.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287461 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 19:58
alec  
In article <4f7usfF1heq2hU1 [at] individual.net>, nospam [at] cunobaros.com
says...

> But just looking at the words, the "in-waiting" implies a powerlessness
> and passivity, yes?

It does - but only relatively, compared to the Sovereign. Ladies and
Gentlemen in Waiting had the ear of the Lord. They were the inner
circle, the ones whom the Lord and his Lady consulted. The "in-crowd",
the cronies. Obviously, in a male dominated society, the Gentlemen in
Waiting were much more powerful than the Ladies. But the Ladies formed
part of the Queen's inner circle, and shared her power. Often they would
have estates and power in their own right, either inherited from their
parents or gifted to them by the Queen. Smaller, nearly always, than
that of the men, but still there.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287463 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 20:00
alec  
In article <86jt82594ddvhva2t0o4jee0ddm4a10fac [at] 4ax.com>,
rosen.elin [at] gmail.com says...

> >But just looking at the words, the "in-waiting" implies a powerlessness
> >and passivity, yes?
>
> I think so, yes. Either it's someone who sits around and
> waits, or someone who serves (as in waiting tables). I'm not
> talking about historically corect here - but if it's a
> childrens story, I'd prefer the women to seem empowered,
> since most children probably won't know what a real lady in
> waiting did, anyway.

Not really true - or true only in the sense that in the feudal system,
everybody serves their feudal lord. As already posted, in the days when
power went by friendship and personal contacts, they were the friends of
the King or other Lord and his spouse.
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287467 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 19:41
Orjan Westin  
Graycat wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0100, "Orjan Westin"
> <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> jotted down:
>
>>>> Burgfraeulein sounds much stronger,
>>>> more self sufficient.
>>
>> Literary "castle maid". Looks better in German, I think.
>
> Yes. But fraeulein is German for, well, fröken, er, what you
> call a young woman if youre polite, like miss I guess, too.

Or "maid", like Maid Marion of Sherwood fame. Unfortunately, that word
has its own load of subservient connotations.

> To me it looks like "woman of the castle", which would, if
> anything, imply ownership - as though she owns/runs the
> castle. I don't speak German though.

Neither do I, but fraeulein is a young, unmarried girl in my mind, so
I'd expect her to be the daughter of the owner of the castle.

>>>> What do they do? Could they be
>>>> knightesses? Despite that word probably not existing.
>>
>> It doesn't. A noble woman commanding knights would be a Lady.
>> Normally, a lady would be the wife of the lord, but widows may
>> inherit command. It's not very common, but it did happen.
>
> I know. But again, I don't think (from what we've been told
> about the story) historical correctness is an issue here.

True.

> I'm not talking about a woman who commands knights, I'm
> talking about a woman who _is_ a knight. I don't think there
> is a word for that, because I don't think they officially
> existed (apart from Jean D'Arc).

I think I've seen her called a "chevalreuse" or something, from the
French "chevalier" which means "knight" (actually, it means "rider",
"ritter" and "riddare" in English, German and Swedish, respectively, but
in the latter two languages that's the term used for what's called a
"knight" in English).

> I think you could use Lady, because it's the closest you get
> statuswise to the word knight, and it's relatively neutral.
> But you still get the sitting-around-waiting-to-get-rescued
> connotations to some extent.

Yes, but I'm afraid you get those with lots of words denoting women.
It's changing, but for a long time that *was* the dominant role of women
in most forms of fiction. That, or evil seductress. Or gentle mother.
Hey, we're getting almost relevant here!

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287471 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 20:43
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
The time: 13 Jun 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The
speaker: "Orjan Westin" <nospam [at] cunobaros.com>

> Graycat wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:02:50 +0100, "Orjan Westin"
>> <nospam [at] cunobaros.com> jotted down:
>>
>>>>> Burgfraeulein sounds much stronger,
>>>>> more self sufficient.
>>>
>>> Literary "castle maid". Looks better in German, I think.
>>
>> Yes. But fraeulein is German for, well, fröken, er, what
>> you call a young woman if youre polite, like miss I guess,
>> too.
>
> Or "maid", like Maid Marion of Sherwood fame.
> Unfortunately, that word has its own load of subservient
> connotations.

Sticking an "-en" on the end might help slightly here. "Castle
maiden". Still has the connotations, but at least it isn't an
actual alternate meaning...

(I considered "damsel", but it's too connected to the phrase
"-in-distress".)

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
Suggs against sexism. It's Madness gone
politically correct.
Jon Holmes, The Now Show 26/5/06
Re: [I] Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287477 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 20:47
Steve Rogers  
"Alec Cawley" <alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ef90bc1e126b91989cd9 [at] news.individual.net...
> In article <e6mc2f$7jd$1$8300dec7 [at] news.demon.co.uk>,
> steve [at] soapietrekkers.demon.co.uk says...
>
>> Now there's an odd one, thinking about it I can't recall any book
>> that
>> I've read in English set in that sort of period that mentions a woman
>> in
>> a castle other than as subservient in some way, other than where the
>> wife is the obvious power behind the throne of course. All the
>> designations that I can recall all reflect this. It's only when you
>> get
>> out of the castle that you start seeing stories where the woman is
>> not
>> in a subservient role. ICBW of course but that's the way it seems to
>> me
>> to be even in modern books written of that sort of period.
>
> The wife who stayed home while her husband went to the war, and
> sometimes had to withstand a siege from his enemies coming the other
> way, was called a Chatelaine. The term lives on as a reference to a
> large keyring on a chain at the waist, which she would (at least in
> the
> imagination) have used in her tasks around the castle. Some
> Chateleaines
> were very competent and powerful women.

Thy knows, that's two responses so far to this one that show I haven't
been clear in what I meant, either that or two posters who are normally
quite sharp have missed a bit of what I wrote, then again maybe it's me
not reading what the wrote right. Ummmmmm... Well unless I hear
different I've now gotta think how to rephrase it lol

-
-
-
-
-

Ok break it down

<fx Hip Hop style drum and bass anthem music, Steve looks pained and
throws boom box out window /fx>

-

Now that it's quieter in here....

Books in English that I have read - so more than 1 and not in French,
German, Merkin, etc and using Mk1 eyeballs augmented by Mk21 optical
enhancers.
Set in that sort of period - so fiction, can't be having with all that
fact stuff, it gets on the furniture and it's so difficult to get out of
the antimacassars.
Woman in castle - was thinking of a woman in a rook or was that a nook,
no... in a book
Subservient in some way - The master's toy, the scullery maid, the
ornamental wife, the bedwarmer....
Other than if obvious power behind throne - Yes honey it's wrong to make
jokes about that....... OW..........Oh you weren't joking.....
Designations recalled reflect this - Lady is a subservient position as
there are variations of stature/grades hence Lady of the Manor, Lady in
Waiting, Lady of the Lake, Lady Marmalade, Lady in Red, Lady Wife, etc.
and you do have positions above that level such as Queen, so as a title
used subserviently (dependant if looking down on said female or looking
up said female, as a description used to express admiration of that
delectable female form.

Clearer?................. No...............Oh bugger.

;-)

Steve
Re: Childrens story and an [ORACLE]-bit [message #287494 ] Di, 13 Juni 2006 23:10
rja.carnegie  
Alec Cawley wrote:
> In article <4f7usfF1heq2hU1 [at] individual.net>, nospam [at] cunobaros.com
> says...
>
> > But just looking at the words, the "in-waiting" implies a powerlessness
> > and passivity, yes?
>
> It does - but only relatively, compared to the Sovereign. Ladies and
> Gentlemen in Waiting had the ear of the Lord. They were the inner
> circle, the ones whom the Lord and his Lady consulted. The "in-crowd",
> the cronies. Obviously, in a male dominated society, the Gentlemen in
> Waiting were much more powerful than the Ladies. But the Ladies formed
> part of the Queen's inner circle, and shared her power. Often they would
> have estates and power in their own right, either inherited from their
> parents or gifted to them by the Queen. Smaller, nearly always, than
> that of the men, but still there.

If you think "waiting" sounds bad, what about the Privy Council...
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